When does an ensemble become an Orchestra?

[Phil Morton]

When does an ensemble become an Orchestra?
Note: The London Improvisers Orchestra, inform me.

`It is probably the case that the larger the group involved, the more difficult it is to create a collective improvisation that is effective and allows space for everyone.`

I associate the term `orchestral` with the experience, `the more difficult it is to create a collective improvisation that is effective and allows space for everyone.`

I suggest there is not an absolute value or number at which this experience is reach, and to agree on, but we could share our thinking.

So, if eight is an ensemble and 18 is orchestral, at what number (or range of numbers) do we consider the sound-stage has become orchestral.

Other complications may include: from a listeners point of view, ot the players point of view.

[Phil Morton]

Some replies/complications

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I don't think the term 'orchestra' is useful in the field of improvisational music. There are too many connotations from the regular classical world to make it helpful to appropriate the term!

By `orchestral` I may think: the total field sound is large, and i cannot isolate individual voice, that I maybe able to isolate voices when a quartet is playing. p morton:

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When they have a conductor and strings it is an orchestra...without strings it is a band....next! - source a FB group:
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Is the word `orchestra` when used by `free improvisers` just a label devoid of meaning? or criteria?
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Hard for me to discern an actual question here....Bob Ross - facebook reply
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The very term 'to orchestrate' implies organisation that is not improvisational.
I suspect that people trying to co-opt the term 'orchestra' are hoping that some of the more 'high brow'/'serious' connotations from the classical arena will rub off, and confer some respectability on their efforts. To be honest, I don't mind if that's true or not- perhaps it's good, if it helps get an audience? source NB Facebook group:
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Maybe a debate is - what is the collective noun for 20 improvisers p morton
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I think orchestra is ok for groups that experiment with conducted improv experiments, parts, scores, aka laptop orchestras
Rebecca Caines : FI&EMR FB group - 16/05/2019
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I did read the notes, I am not sure what follows from me saying "8" as opposed to "13", or any number at all. Yes, things get harder to have collective improvisation as the ensemble gets bigger, but that is an issue, to me at least, totally separate from questions about orchestras vs ensembles, which seem to be merely terminological, and drawing upon nomenclature from classical music which itself varied with time and practice traditions.

and

I would also say more important than numbers is the players themselves. A trio of new improvisers may step on each others sonic toes, so to speak, while 15 folks well-trained in deep listening may leave amble space for each other.
Eric Lewis: FI&EMR FB group - 16/05/2019
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I think its more about the roles of the members, an orchestra is an ensemble, but an ensemble is not necessarily an orchestra. Orchestras have defined sections and those sections perform their roles in a piece, whereas in an ensemble, each member has their own role, and that role is closely tied with their instrument
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